Neurodivergent Learners and Earners with Holly Tilbrook

This spring Holly Tilbrook presented as part of a panel titled “Neurodivergent Learners (and Earners!) in Postsecondary Education” at the UPCEA annual conference. Holly is a deputy director of the Academic Centres at the University of Cambridge’s Institute of Continuing Education. That institute offers a variety of postsecondary learning opportunities for students of all ages, from onsite weekend courses to online certificate programs to degree programs offered across various modalities. Many of Holly’s students aren’t just learners, they’re earners, in the sense that they are active participants in the workforce. 

I wanted to know what Holly has been learning about supporting students with ADHD and other types of neurodivergence, particularly adult students and online students. I reached out to Holly via LinkedIn, where she posts thoughtful reflections on her work on a regular basis, and she was glad to talk with me. In our conversation, we discuss ways to build trust with neurodivergent students, accommodations that can more authentically meet these students’ needs, and helping neurodivergent students enter or re-enter the workforce. 

Episode Resources

·       Holly Tilbrook on LinkedIn, https://www.linkedin.com/in/hebtilbook/ 

·       Institute of Continuing Education, University of Cambridge, https://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/ 

·       Still Distracted After All These Years: Help and Support for Older Adults with ADHD by Kathleen Nadeau, https://amzn.to/3ze0pt8 

Chapters

• 2:04 Meet the Educator
• 4:56 Continuing Education Students
• 7:17 Neurodivergent Learners
• 11:49 Neurodivergent Earners
• 16:15 Authentic Actions
• 26:26 Developing Trust
• 33:35 What's Next
• 36:48 Outro

Transcript

Derek Bruff: 0:00

... Welcome to Intentional Teaching, a podcast aimed at educators to help them develop foundational teaching skills and explore new ideas and teaching. I'm your host, Derek Bruff. I hope this podcast helps you be more intentional in how you teach and in how you develop as a teacher over time. Last year on the podcast, I interviewed Cathryn Friel about her study of the experiences of students with ADHD in online courses. That episode is currently my fourth most downloaded episode, even beating out most of the AI focused episodes of this podcast. Clearly, there's an interest in the higher education community about neurodivergent students and how best to support them as learners. That's why when UPCEA, the Online and Professional Education Association, sent over a list of suggested guests as part of their sponsorship of this podcast, I zeroed in on Holly Tilbrook. At the UPCEA annual conference in March, Holly presented as part of a panel titled Neurodivergent Learners and Earners in Post-Secondary Education. Holly is a deputy director of the Academic Centres at the University of Cambridge's Institute of Continuing Education. That institute offers a variety of post-secondary learning opportunities for students of all ages, from onsite weekend courses to online certificate programs to degree programs offered across various modalities. Many of Holly's students aren't just learners, they're earners in the sense that they are active participants in the workforce. I wanted to know what Holly has been learning about supporting students with ADHD and other types of neurodivergence, particularly adult students and online students. I reached out to Holly via LinkedIn, where she posts thoughtful reflections on her work on a regular basis, and she was glad to talk with me. In our conversation, we discuss ways to build trust with Neurodivergent students accommodations that can more authentically meet the student's needs and helping neurodivergent students enter or re-enter the workforce. Holly, thanks for being on the International Teaching podcast. I'm very excited to have you as a guest here. Thanks. Thanks for being here.

Holly Tilbrook: 2:11

No, thanks for inviting me. I'm very excited as well. This is my first ever time being a podcast guest.

Derek Bruff: 2:17

That's great. I'm happy to to to welcome you into this world. Can you tell us about a time when you realized you wanted to be an educator?

Holly Tilbrook: 2:29

Yes. And I wanted to really thank you for this question, because I think I often I identify myself more as being an administrator or a manager. And actually, that question made me realize that no. Even though I may not be delivering to students directly all the time, my heart is about education. That's what I'm there to do. I'm there to support students. Yes, I am educator, so I'm going to reclaim that as my title. So thank you. And this question made me laugh because I remember distinctly being told when I was 15 by careers and guidance counselors at school that teaching would be a really good career for me. And I said, Absolutely not. I do not want to be a teacher. I never want to teach. And then here we are, however many decades later working for a university. The change came when I was doing my Ph.D. and like many graduate students back in the late nineties, early noughties, I was given an opportunity to teach and I loved it, loved it much more than I did writing my thesis, if I'm honest. So that was a turning point for me. I then took a bit of a wiggle because from academia I became a secondary school teacher, then did a few other things before eventually sort of caving in and going, No, okay, I am going to be an educator after all. And I think I was bucking against that desire because my father was a lecturer. My mother was a school teacher. My sister is now a primary school teacher, and I think I said that I want my own path, but I succumbed in the end and I absolutely love it. That's a very long answer to what would have been a short question.

Derek Bruff: 4:25

No, no, I love it and I love it. And I love thinking about someone in your position as an educator, Right? You may not be the one directly teaching students in the same fashion, but you are you are a part of the educational system. And, you know, sometimes administrators get a bad rap, but there's a lot of important work that has to be done on different levels for students to succeed. So I like to think of us as educators.

Holly Tilbrook: 4:50

Yes. No, from now on, that's what I'm going to reclaim the title of educator.

Derek Bruff: 4:54

That's great. Well, what can you say about the students who attend the Institute of Continuing Education at the University of Cambridge? It's a very open ended question.

Holly Tilbrook: 5:08

It is a very open ended question. And I think I need to declare a conflict of interest here because I have been a student of the Institute of Continuing Education before I became a member of staff. I did three courses here because I've always valued education and lifelong learning and personal development. So I think as with all students, they are very much individual, but they are very committed to their education. They've chosen to come here not because it was the next step on the educational ladder, the way when you're younger you go through primary school, secondary school, single college or university. You know, if you do that path, they have chosen to come here either because they weren't able to fulfil that trajectory when they were younger because they want to switch careers or pivot slightly in their career. They may be retired and just really want to study something for the enjoyment and love of the subjects. And we have. So there's a really wonderful story on the institute's LinkedIn pages at the moment about one of our weekend courses. So we run courses which are non award bearing, that cover weekend all the way through to a two year part-time master's course. On this particular weekend course and a 19 year old attended with his 82 year old granddad. And I think if anything sums up continuing education, they did it completely bridges the generation. They came to study something that they loved. One was at the very early stages of their further education, a one at the very end towards the later years and applied. And I think what is now a kind of encore education is the on buzz word for it. So yes, it is incredibly varied and committed and enthusiastic.

Derek Bruff: 7:16

Now, now, well, speaking of the students and their diversity, what what has sparked your interest in the experiences of Neurodivergent students in continuing education?

Holly Tilbrook: 7:29

From a very pragmatic level. Part of my job was to set up disability support units at the Institute of Continuing Education. Not a very prosaic reason, but really sparked my interest as one of the first students I had a conversation with and they wanted to talk to me because they had just recently received a diagnosis of ADHD. And as you can imagine, on the one hand felt quite relief because it explained a lot of questions that they had on the same time is very discombobulating because they didn't know what to do with that knowledge. How that could impact their learning, how it would impact their learning. And not only that, but also what would happen in their workplace. Did we have any advice so they could take away tools and strategies? And that really got me interested in the talk about learning differences. But they didn't stop in the classroom. They don't only manifest in a learning environment, and I think that was the first time I really had that realisation myself. But yes, they're learning difference is because it's probably in a learning environment that they first manifest themselves and they're recognised. But they effect all elements of our lives. So it was that conversation that really sparked my interest. And then in the UK and I'm sure it's the same in the US as well, there's just been a growing awareness and recognition of neurodivergency recently, especially undiagnosed neurodivergency In adults and obviously that's what we're about at the continuing education and also particularly in women, but also it manifests very differently across the genders, But also through the ages as well. What you know, a nine year old boy might represent as ADHD symptoms may not be what the 48 year old woman represents. So just that growing awareness and just.

Derek Bruff: 9:38

Yeah, yeah. So so how did you go about that? How did you how did you pursue information and perspectives on this topic?

Holly Tilbrook: 9:46

In a number of ways. The university has an accessibility and disability resource centre, s I spoke to colleagues that in the first instance and they gave us some really good guidance on the types of reasonable adjustments we could put in place for learning. I then started listening to podcasts. There are some brilliant podcasts in the UK at the moment. I started reading books. There's a great book I read by Kathleen Nadeau quite recently about ADHD in the older members and how that can impact your lives. And that was one of those books that really made me realise actually it's not just about the learning environment and it affects all aspects of our lives. Attending conferences doing a couple of online courses, following people on LinkedIn the usual myriad of ways that people can pick up knowledge and importantly listening to students. So that first student who came to talk to me really asking them to explain to me what they were struggling with, what it meant to them, what they thought might help them. And also talking to students who came with a diagnosis that they might have had all the way from secondary school maybe in primary school one of our more younger learners and asking them because they tend to come knowing what they need.

Derek Bruff: 11:16

Yeah.

Holly Tilbrook: 11:17

And so you can learn from them directly as well. So a real mixture of different forms is putting that together. I would say that although awareness is rising, it is still quite difficult to really find a lot of information that can really inform the changes that you want to make from others.

Derek Bruff: 11:42

Yeah, and let me because I do think awareness is rising. I've noticed a lot more conversations about this in higher ed, but I do think it's interesting that that one of the first things you noticed was that these are both students and people in the workplace, right? It's affecting all parts of their lives. What what does that part look like? What have you learned about how neurodivergence might show up in your students work lives outside of the courses that they're taking?

Holly Tilbrook: 12:14

So I'm sort of at the very early stages of focusing on that and learning more about that. The initial priority was getting the support setup in place for the learner aspect, and I guess it's really only been in the past maybe six months to 12 months, I've really started to turn my attention to what does this mean, How can we support our students to take the tools and strategies that we're using in our learning environment into different environments? And it can be very tricky because obviously something these are some of the things we're doing is an extra time for essay writing and, you know, directed reading lists and thinking, well, how does that fit into a workplace? How can that shift happen? And again, I think a lot of it is just coming from my reading and following influencers, for want of a better word, and also just going to students saying, what have you learned? Have you picked up anything? I think it is just being sensible and when we say to students or to teachers, you know, this student may need to take breaks in their concentration, their focus and depending on the neurodivergence you were talking about and in the workplace, we might be sitting through 2 hours of meetings without a break. How can we help to rethink what work has to look like? And I think it's how can we empower individuals to advocate for themselves in workplaces that are very much built? I mean, we work in higher education. We know, or at least in the UK, I don't know what it's like in the US in the UK, a lot of decisions are made in committee meetings.

Derek Bruff: 14:02

Yes.

Holly Tilbrook: 14:04

Which can last from an hour to 2 hours and can come with anything from 50 pages of committee papers to 250. Yeah. And so if I were saying to a neurodivergent colleague here, what can we adjust having to think through how you break down the very embedded practice of decision making, you really have to go back to what is the intention of these meetings. And so it is quite it is quite difficult. I think. I think one of the other challenges at the workplace there was a recent study by I think was Birkbeck in London around neurodiversity in the workplace, and they interviewed about a thousand people. But I can clarify the details later. And 65% of employees said that they didn't want to diagnose or felt uncomfortable about diagnosing because of the stigma of diagnosis. And they also interviewed managers about this and 69% managers said, well, one of the problems is the lack of disclosure. If people don't disclose, you don't know how to help them. And the also 65% of managers said they lacked the understanding to know what to do to help the Neurodivergent workers. So I think in an education setting we have come a long way since I was at university in the 1990s. And I think the work setting some of the work settings, I can't speak for everybody, still has a long way to catch up. We need to take the learnings from education and think about what can we do differently in the workplace. If we can do it in education, surely we can do it in the workplace too. I just think we're at a very early stage in that conversation. For my experience, I'm sure there'll be other people who can perhaps share sources with me about what's going on, but that's certainly how I see it at the moment.

Derek Bruff: 16:15

Yeah, I've I heard you use I've heard you use the term authentic actions instead of accommodations when working with Neurodivergent students. What do you mean by authentic actions?

Holly Tilbrook: 16:32

So I have a few. I pinched that from somewhere else, so I'm not claiming it as my own, but when I read it, I thought that feels like a term that resonates more with me. So the standard term in the UK is reasonable adjustment and I know you make accommodation, don't you, in in the States. And I think I was thinking about this and I think the best analogy I can make is I'm quite short, I'm only 5 foot 2, so for those who do metric, that's about 156 centimeters. And so when I was younger, a lot of trousers had to be taken up for me. I could never find the right length trouser. Now a lot of brands do petite ranges, so they've done something authentically, which means I don't have to adjust.

Derek Bruff: 17:28

Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Holly Tilbrook: 17:30

So that was sort of my analogy when I was thinking about that. And I think it's thinking through the support you want to put in place and making sure it's done in a way that really will help. And I think that's what I mean by authentic action. So an adjustment that we may want to suggest to you, let's say a learner who's got dyslexia, we may say you can have more time and that might really help that student. However, if you have a student with a neurodivergency which actually means that they can lack focus or is easy for them to procrastinate and go off task. Giving them more time on this by itself may not help in some ways. Maybe you're just giving them more time to become distracted and you're just pushing off the deadline. A more authentic action might be we can give you more time, but within that time we're going to scaffold many deadlines for you to hit. And that's what I mean by authentic. It's how will this work to help me? So I'm yes, like I say, it's not a term that I came up with and I read it. And just the thing is that authenticity is an educator. I'm so pleaseed you introduced me to that term for myself. I am I want to be authentic in all that I do. I don't just want to say here's a tick box, here's a list of things that might help you. I think it's important that we say these are things that might help you. How can we implement them in such a way that they do help you and we still have a long way to go on that, I think. But that's where I want to move.

Derek Bruff: 19:35

Well, and I'm hearing authenticity in a couple of ways. One is that it's actually meeting the students where where they are and providing them some structure that they need. But it's also authentic to the task, right, that if you give a students a big assignment, it undoubtedly has many smaller parts that need to kind of build on each other. So it's not inauthentic to say we're going to we're going to have many deadlines along the way to help you get there. Right. And the other thing I'm curious about is because you mentioned, you know, giving someone you know, extra time for something kind of generically. But I wonder if that more scaffolded approach is something that a student could then maybe a student who's been recently diagnosed can then take that into their workplace and maybe even advocate for themselves. This is the kind of structure that I need to to to do well at this work.

Holly Tilbrook: 20:27

Yes, I think totally. And also think about how they plan their day. So if you go back to sort of higher education context, if you need to write a paper for a committee, being realistic that actually it might not get done in an hour, you might need to give yourself an hour and a half, one day, an hour and a half the next day. But you're going to break after is it the Pomodoro technique, isn't it? And I go, I'm going to work in 25 minute bursts really focus and then just stop and then come back to it rather than thinking we can. And I think as with many of these adjustments, they benefit everybody. The whole idea that you can, you know, that somebody and I know some people can really hyperfocus, but at the beginning of that I need to break my brain can't be on from 9:00 in the morning

until 5: 21:23

00 in the evening. And if I do fill my diary with meetings from 9:00 to 5:00, if you know, the attention I'm giving at 430 is not going to be the same that I'm giving at 9:00. So is that breaking things down in a way that makes sense for you? And also the task, as you say, the task that you're doing is not always going to be possible for this ways of trying. And it's about experimenting based on what works for you. And I think the other thing, going back to the authentic action, what we started we started doing this couple of years ago, is saying to the student, look, we're going to give you some x X time, but we can also put you in touch with a study skills tutor who can maybe help you understand what to do with that time.

Derek Bruff: 22:13

Yeah, and I can imagine that would be particularly helpful for an adult who has perhaps been recently diagnosed, right, That likely they have some coping strategies that they've adopted already just to kind of make it through life. Well, but to actually talk to someone who has some perhaps a different set of strategies that that might be a good match.

Holly Tilbrook: 22:34

Yes, it's.

Derek Bruff: 22:34

A big service.

Holly Tilbrook: 22:36

And especially because as adult learners, even if you did do higher education, you know, the kind of more usual time after school of school, it's for many of us is a long time since we last did a university level paper essay test. So I think that was almost a 30 year gap between me leaving uni and doing a course here. And I remember feeling really anxious about that first piece of work. So layer that with a recent diagnosis, you know, then how and as I said early the diagnosis can be a relief because thinking, okay, I can now get help with this, which is brilliant, but equally having spoke with some students is also discombobulating. It's yeah, two sides of the same coin.

Derek Bruff: 23:33

Yeah well and and I also want to circle back to this idea that what works well for one student might not work well for another student. Right? I've known students where they actually going to do a lot better work if they can start the project at noon and keep working until they're done right. Like once they get in the zone, they it works better to stay there, which can be great if they know that. But if they run into a problem at 9 p.m. the night before it's due and they can't and they need it, they need help from someone else like the instructor that so so part of it could be even thinking about, okay, I know I'm going to block out this 12 hour block of time to get it done. What do I need to figure out before then so that I have all that I need during that time to finish the whole project?

Holly Tilbrook: 24:20

Oh, yes. And then because for adult learners that might be a strategy that works but very few adults have probably even four hours uninterrupted time.

Derek Bruff: 24:31

Yeah.

Holly Tilbrook: 24:32

Because they lot they will be working there will be caring responsibilities whether it's up or down or both. There's just life admin that we have to do as adults that we may not have had to contend with. You know, earlier in our education. So I think you're right. As more you may know what your preferred tool would be, but that might not work anymore. So how can we support you navigating that learner within the wider sphere of everything else that you're doing as an adult learner? And I think sometimes I know I used to find that frustrating of, you know, setting aside a day to write my essay and then that you know [knocks] Mommy!

Derek Bruff: 25:23

Right? Right.

Holly Tilbrook: 25:25

And even if I could hear my husband going, mummy's busy. Come downstairs. Yeah. You know, if, if your son wants you, you know, it's very hard to say to a three year old, you know, no no no not now.

Derek Bruff: 25:38

Right.

Holly Tilbrook: 25:39

Of course once the essays done, you know, then I can be mum again. Right. So I think there's layers and other challenges. Yeah. As well that we see with adult learners and I think even those who don't have a neurodivergence and or especially those who may not have a diagnosed neurodivergent, you know, there's so many other layers that we're dealing with on a daily basis. So I think tools and strategies and I think again, that brings me back to the authenticity. We can't think about adult learners only as learners. There is everything else going on. At the same time that we need to be aware of.

Derek Bruff: 26:26

Yeah, so you mentioned earlier the importance of disclosure. And so I'm wondering how do you go about developing the kind of trust that's necessary for students, for learners or employees to disclose a diagnosis or a or a neuro divergence of some sort?

Holly Tilbrook: 26:50

I think the first thing to do, as we said earlier, is to invite students, because otherwise you're giving them the responsibility of having to come forward. Whereas if you invite them in, I think that is the opening and it may not always work, but it's an opening. So, you know, we are interested. Please let us know and is having wording to say if you disclose, there are things we can do to help. I think it's being really open in the information available to students to say that there is support open for students. And again, if they if they can see what their support might look like. And not only that, but they've heard from my teams and my team attend open days, say that this is who we are, is what we can do to help you. And you put a face to a person to talk to. I think that helps with trust as well. If you can go, okay, that's a person isn't, especially in the world of online. But not everything is you know, the initial application process might be pretty faceless to be able to see pictures on websites, to see someone on open day, even if it's an online open day or recorded, see the experience of other students. So we do have students who will sometimes come to us and say, It's been such great experience. How can I share my stories? So that other students know that you are supported, a place to come and study, and then I think to continue with the trust once they have disclosed is find the time to give them the space to listen, providing those authentic actions to support them being available, to reach out and get back in touch, to say that it hasn't quite helped. Or I'm not sure if everybody knows that because I've noticed that in this class this happened, but that didn't happen. Can you just double check for me? As we know, advocating on their behalf with colleagues as well just makes just to kind of check these things are in place and and my team are brilliant at just checking in with students all the time. Just kind of a sometimes with emails, sometimes text messages. We have discovered that different forms of communication work very differently depending on student. Some students may not respond to email. They drop them a text message. Even if the text message is we send you an email, can you check right? Or it's all WhatsApp Zoom calls. Some even have some instances where in an in-person setting they might come and see you. That I really want to talk. Can we set up a zoom link I think is working with them to how do they want to communicate with you? And I think when they realise that you can accommodate that as much as possible we have to be boundaried as, as well. I mean one of the things are working with adult learners if they're working 9 to 5, when can they find the time to talk to you? So is having the, the flex and the boundaries and saying maybe we can meet next week or can we work around for we and my colleagues all try and be available during residentials so that if somebody wants to speak face to face, they can. And we have a very good relationship with the university's Accessibility Resource Centre as well and very supportive. I think trust is iterative. I don't think you could assume it. I think it's a mistake if you assume it. And I think I think I've certainly been guilty of, but we tell them they could tell us.

Derek Bruff: 31:04

All right. Right, right. But I think, you know it's I'm trying to imagine, you know, in a situation where I know I might need some type of support, someone is telling me they are supportive, but they're not showing me how they would be supportive or how they've been supportive in the past. I would I would have a lot more confidence if, you know, if if the attitude is if you need help, we'll build something for you. We are willing, we're eager. Right. It's a different thing to say that. And then also, here's some of the things we built already, right? Like, here's some stuff that you can already take advantage of. And I think for someone, especially who's hesitant to disclose, you want to know not only is this person going to receive me well, but they're going to be in a position to actually help, Right? It's not just good intentions, but it's actually some proactive steps they've taken to say, Yeah, we want you here.

Holly Tilbrook: 32:00

Yes. No, totally. And as you say, it's following through with those conversations and also being reflective. If a student comes back and says that has worked or sometimes a student might come up and say, this has worked for me in a previous institution and it might be something we haven't tried before, or we don't usually do. And it's well, let's think about that to see how we may be able to implement. And we have. I should also point out that the university library at Cambridge is brilliant as well. And sometimes we do have students who might need audio versions of things and different formats and they're really good at advising what they can now can do. And I've learned a lot about, you know, dictation software helps as well. New students go what I use dictate on my windows like, Oh great, okay. Or on your phone. I think, you know, going back to inclusive practices, I find that really helpful. If I you know, there's something in my mind I can just press record and my voice memo is making more people aware of some of these tools and strategies because as I said earlier, we have students from 19 to 82 who have very different knowledge of all the various tools and strategies which are out there. So we know where we're all learning from one another and being mentored up as well as, you know, down I think is really important within our team as well as for my students.

Derek Bruff: 33:34

Yeah, Well, you mentioned you're still learning in this area. What are some questions that you are pursuing right now that you're curious about or you're hoping to learn more about?

Holly Tilbrook: 33:48

Well, one of the things I'm really interested in working on is really thinking through that learner to earner.

Derek Bruff: 34:00

Uh huh.

Holly Tilbrook: 34:01

And how we can support our learners. Take some of those tools and strategies into other areas of their lives. But more than that, I'm aware. I think in the UK it's estimated a 15 to 20% of the population are neurodiverse, about half of them are undiagnosed and of that half of them might be unaware. You know, there's a lot of people because of the way there's lots of people that go, I think I might be. And so finding the tools and strategies, but if you just think about that number, then come out. What am I doing for my colleagues who might be neurodiverse? And I don't want to have to wait for them to disclose to me. I want to be proactive in thinking through what are some of the strategies and tools we can implement in the workplace to support our earners, because we are here educating, supporting our students, we need to ensure that our colleagues have got the support that they need in order to do that as well. So I'm really interested in that intersection between the learner and the earner. And it's not just about the earner either. I mentioned a book earlier by Kathleen Nadeau, I think it's pronounced, and that talks even about ADHD once you're retired. And we have, you know, students up until they're 82. So I think it's what can we learn from that learning environment that can really help us as individuals thrive, not just as learners? I think, you know, great that we want to do everything we can to support all of our learners when they're with us. But I'd like to think that we're giving them some tools and strategies so when they leave whilst the official relationship is ended with us, we're also helping them to thrive afterwards as well. Yeah.

Derek Bruff: 36:18

Yeah. Thank you, Holly, for taking this time. This has been really delightful. You've given me lots to think about. I think you've given our audience a lot to think about. So yes. Thank you. Thank you for sharing today.

Holly Tilbrook: 36:30

That's kind Just shout out to the audience. I'm not an expert. I have more questions than I have answers. So if anybody wants to share all of their good ideas with me, please let me know.

Derek Bruff: 36:42

All right. Thank you so much, Holly.

Holly Tilbrook: 36:44

Thanks, Derek. Have a nice evening.

Derek Bruff: 36:51

That was Holly Tilbrook, deputy director of the academic centres at the Institute of Continuing Education at the University of Cambridge. Thanks so much to Holly for taking the time to talk with me and for sharing her exploration of this topic with my podcast listeners. As you can hear there at the end of the interview, Holly welcomes ideas and information from you. You can connect with her on LinkedIn. See the show notes for a link or reach out to her through me. There's a link in the show notes that will let you send me a text message, or you can email me at derek@derekbruff. org. During our conversation, Holly and I had a sidebar about effective leadership in academic environments where she framed her leadership as, quote, orchestrating, not directing. If you'd like to hear that part of our conversation, hop over to the intentional teaching Patreon, where I often post bonus clips for my podcast episodes. Intentional teaching is sponsored by UPCEA, the online and professional education association.